News Archive March 2010

The Rock Behind The Invasion Part 2
From: KISSfaq.com
by Tim McPhate
Posted: March 28, 2010

Read part 1 here.

KF: That kind of segues into the inner controversy surrounding the band during "All Systems Go." You have been quoted as saying "the writing had been on the wall" following the recording of the album and that Mark was having his leaving-member option picked up by Chrysalis Records while the Invasion was still on the road in support of the album. Can you recapitulate what was going on with the band at this time?

BR: Once the recording was done, things began to unravel a bit. We were searching for new management during the ultra-critical stages of a new record coming out...there was a lot of uncertainty -- real or imagined -- about Vinnie's role in his own band, and a lot of subtle divisiveness that began to set in early on.

As I recall, though, the real line in the sand came about when the new manager guy began to set things up, financially and logistically, where the three of us -- Mark, Dana and I -- were more like sidemen than band members. So instead of having one cohesive unit where everyone -- band, management and label -- is on the same page, you had Vinnie and his manager (who would go on to do some pretty deceitful shit along the way) in one camp, the three of us (who probably didn't handle things so great) in another, and the label (with their own hidden agenda) in yet another. It was a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

But ya know -- not to get too philosophical on you -- I'm sure you've heard that old fable about the six blind men standing around an elephant. They are all asked to reach out and touch the elephant, then describe what they think the elephant "looks" like, based on what they "feel." The guy near the trunk says, "An elephant is long and curvy, like a snake." The guy near a leg says, "No, an elephant is tall and thick like a tree." The guy near the tusk says, "No, an elephant is smooth and sharp, like a spear." Then the guy near his side says, "You're all wrong. An elephant is just a huge mass, like a wall." And so forth. Of course, they are all correct to some degree, based on their limited perceptions.

So the point I'm trying to make is that, each of us involved with the VVI trip probably has a perception of the experience that is only partially the whole truth...me included. The WHOLE truth of the matter probably lies somewhere in the summation of ALL of our perspectives. Good luck trying to piece that one together!

KF: Well, we've now got 25 percent of the equation!

I want to read you a quote from Vinnie from the late '90s regarding the demise of the Invasion: "I thought I had constructed the ultimate rock ship and ended up in a political struggle with the record company and became the victim of a foolish financial decision to substitute rocket fuel with dishwater; thinking it would still fly. Ultimately the trip aborted." What is your reaction to reading this? Did Vinnie feel there was a mutiny against him in his own band? And with hindsight, would you have done anything differently?

BR: I'm not exactly sure what he meant by dishwater instead of rocket fuel...unless he's referring to his preference for Robert as a vocalist. But yeah, I'm sure he did feel like there was a mutiny against him.

In hindsight, I'm not sure what could have been done differently. Vinnie was an extremely complex character...not exactly the kind of guy where it was always smart to be completely forthcoming about the truth (as I would later find out the hard way). I don't recall any "mutiny" kind of thing as being meant to be a mutiny. I think many people in the organization, as well as the media, saw Vinnie as somewhat of a liability to his own trip, so the three of us were trying to figure out how to "manage" the liability.

Looking back, however, I feel like Vinnie was probably less of a liability and more misunderstood, mishandled and mismanaged all the way around. It seemed like, on a certain level, he was being "imaged" as more of a super-glam, wild and crazy rock star kind of character, when he should've been handled more like a private Ritchie Blackmore kind of character, which is more what he was like.

I mean, someone like [Poison guitarist] C.C. DeVille really is that character you see...it's authentic to him. But Vinnie was actually a very private person and -- as everyone now knows -- a family man with a wife and two young daughters. He didn't drink or do drugs and had a nice, normal life in an L.A. suburb. He wasn't the kind of guy to go out trolling the Sunset Strip, banging different girls every night. (The rest of us, however, were a different story back then!) Of course, the public didn't have to know anything about his private life, but it could've at least been left to their imagination. I don't know how comfortable Vinnie was with all of that glam shit, but I don't think he was always represented authentically. Now whether this was Vinnie's undoing or just how he was steered, I couldn't tell you.

KF: At what point did you realize that the band was going to implode? Was there any possibility of salvaging the situation?

BR: Very early in the tour, we all knew it was over. Too much had been said and done at that point, plus -- as I mentioned -- Vinnie had an "ethically challenged" manager who had firmly wedged himself between the three of us and Vinnie. So, no -- I don't think anything could've salvaged it by then.

And I take responsibility for my role in propagating the madness. But I was young and stupid in a lot of ways...naive to think the total honesty approach was always the best path to take. One of the biggest lessons I learned back then was this: In business and personal matters, you often times have to balance out exactly HOW transparent you want to be about an issue, based on the other person's capacity to deal with it. And in this case, things were so volatile that Vinnie probably wasn't in a place to "interpret" the full truth of what had been going on with true objectivity. Meanwhile, it wasn't fair to Mark and Dana that I put so much on the table to Vinnie when we were all in the middle of this delicate business/financial arrangement out on the road. It was a fucking mess.

KF: Controversy aside, that second album is stellar. Songs such as "That Time Of Year," "Burn," "Ashes To Ashes," "Love Kills," "Breakout," Ecstasy," and "Let Freedom Rock" make up a strong diverse group of songs. What are your favorite tracks off "All Systems Go"?

BR: The original uncut version of "Ashes To Ashes," "Naughty Naughty," "Burn," "Love Kills," and "That Time Of Year" are probably the standouts for me.

KF: What it is the story behind your featured drum solo on the "All Systems Go" CD release, "The Meltdown"?

BR: Back then it was customary to add extra bonus tracks to CDs, since they were relatively new to the marketplace. The solo was, I believe, Dana's idea for a quick and easy way to add a track. So he and our engineer Mikey put together some crazy-sounding sequences and effects on a drum machine, then had me come in and solo on top of it. My tech set up a bizarre percussion rig which consisted of roto toms, timbales, hi-hats, a mounted bass drum, and a few other things. And, I believe we had to set up in some weird storage locker space near the control room, since all the tracking rooms were taken that night. It was a last minute, off-the-cuff thing that we did not spend a lot of time on.

KF: How would you characterize Dana and Vinnie's relationship?

BR: Outwardly harmonious, but inwardly complicated. They seemed to have a very good working relationship, but there was a complex web of shit that was always going on behind the scenes. I think Vinnie was more authentic with Dana, and I think Dana felt like he had to "handle" Vinnie...to protect him from certain situations, and protect certain situations from Vinnie. To what extent any or all of that was necessary is largely unknown.

KF: Vinnie and Dana were the co-producers on the Invasion albums. How would you describe their roles as producers and did their approach differ between the two albums? And did Vinnie have the final say like a typical producer would?

BR: Well, let's see. Dana was definitely more hands-on in the role, as he dealt with most of the daily minutia of recording. And yes, Vinnie always seemed to have the final say...at least in terms of final approval on certain things. Dana was more practical, empathetic and diplomatic, which made him a better producer to work with. He also had a superhuman work ethic.

Vinnie had good instincts as a producer, but didn't usually have much sensitivity when it came to getting a good performance out of someone. If I did a decent pass of a song but it had a few glitches, his feedback would sometimes come across very condescending. This can really get inside your head when you're trying to record...especially as a young guy. In fairness to Vinnie, though, I don't think he ever meant to come across that way, or even realized how his feedback might have been taken. But that's kind of the point. As a producer, you have to convey direction to the musicians in a way that gets the best performances out of them. Telling someone you're recording they sound like an "amateur" is probably not the best thing to say right before you hit the record button!

The other issue was Dana wanted great drum tracks that sounded like they were played by a live drummer. This I was capable of offering. But Vinnie wanted more of that mechanical, machine-like Mutt Lange/"Pyromania" vibe, and was constantly in search of that sound...but with a live drummer, on a natural, acoustic kit. This meant that, for the initial phase of drum-tracking, hours, even days, were spent with me simply trying to emulate how a fucking machine would sound. They would even A/B my tracks to a drum machine reference -- panned left and right in the stereo monitors -- and make sure that every single note was perfect. And I mean every single note of a track. Pure lunacy.

KF: Interesting.

BR: Of course, there's nothing wrong with that Mutt Lange concept. Those tracks sound epic. But it was just the wrong approach to take, based on how we were set up to record. Meanwhile, Dana was stuck in the middle. He thought this approach was ridiculous, like we all did, but he had to appease his co-producer. It was incredibly frustrating for all of us, Vinnie included. Ultimately, though, I was able to sound exactly like a machine. So much so, that when the suits at the label and our manager finally heard the basic tracks, they were all like, "Why in the hell did you guys decide to use a drum machine? This sounds like shit!"

Long story longer, I wound up doing drum tracks for the [first] record THREE TIMES. And in the end -- we wound up exactly where we started; with me, down in that dark theater, playing live tracks. It was a hell of an initiation to "major label recording." And I've never, ever, dealt with anything like that again throughout my entire career.

Needless to say, "All Systems Go" was a whole other story, all the way around. We all found a much easier groove with the process, and I believe Strum and I knocked out drums and bass in a few easy days.

KF: There is one reported demo outtake from the "All Systems Go" sessions, "I Wanna Love You." Do you have any recollections of this song and do you recall and any other leftover studio tracks from "All Systems Go"?

BR: Yes, I believe I remember that tune, and it seems like there might have been a few others. But basically, the tunes that Vinnie did full demos of at the time were the ones we recorded.

"Ya Know I'm Pretty Shot" -- Vinnie's classical/blues/fingerstyle hybrid piece.

KF: Vinnie is known for a very unpredictable and eccentric lead guitar style, but one thing rarely discussed is his solid rhythm guitar work, riff-writing and sophisticated chord library. How would you sum up Vinnie's guitar playing style?

BR: He really was the complete player, with a huge vocabulary that extended through different styles -- all kinds of rock, funk, jazz, blues, classical, country chicken-pickin' stuff. He could play most anything.

KF: What can you tell us about Vinnie's approach to tracking his guitars? Were you in the studio when Vinnie recorded and can you share anything about him knocking out those shredding leads?

BR: Well, as I mentioned, it was all about him and Dana constructing the solos in the moment, since I don't recall Vinnie ever having anything worked out in advance. Vinnie would just start ripping, and Dana would record him. Ultimately, though, there wasn't really anything that they did in the recording process that Vinnie couldn't replicate live if he wanted to. It's just that this process they fell into was very creative and efficient as far as Vinnie being able to compose some killer solos.

That said, Dana played somewhat of a producer role to Vinnie as they tracked solos, since he offered excellent suggestions and direction along the way, and got great performances out of him. Dana was also an extraordinary engineer when it came to "punching in," which is kind of like doing live edits.

The other thing I remember was how insanely loud it was in the actual tracking room. There were at least a half-dozen different heads, all arranged on their sides in a semicircle, with an oscillating fan blowing on them to keep the tubes cool. Some of these amps, I believe, had been modified or customized, on some level. Then you had cables up the ass and an array of different cabinets all around the room, with mics placed everywhere -- up close to catch Vinnie's pick attack; from a distance to catch the room ambiance; etc. As you might imagine, the raw sound coming at us in the control room was just unbelievable. And to actually be in the room where the cabs were? Holy shit! I had to step in there one time to grab something while he was tracking, and you just couldn't believe how fucking loud it was. But it was absolutely jaw-dropping to hear how big and bad-ass it sounded. It was the ultimate arena rock guitar sound for the time...at least in its raw state.

KF: Vinnie is heralded by many of his fans as being a supremely gifted songwriter. Taking guitar playing out of the equation, how would you describe Vinnie as a songwriter?

BR: Very gifted. Ya know, they say that a great song can be played on just an acoustic guitar and still come across. If I'm not mistaken, I believe this is how Vinnie wrote a lot of his stuff...at least in the beginning stages. Don't quote me on that, definitively, because I don't know exactly how often he took this approach. But I do remember talking to him about that, and I always thought it was interesting how these heavy-ass arena rock anthems made their way into the world via an acoustic guitar. But again, it's a testament to his craftsmanship as a writer. And most of these tunes really do hold up in acoustic form.

KF: Was there a third video from "All Systems Go" ever planned? What would have been your choice for the third single/video?

BR: Good question.

Well, first of all, I wouldn't have led off with "That Time Of Year." "Ashes To Ashes" was the first to go to radio, so I thought that was more representative of the band and the record for a first video. However, if you recall, that band Kingdom Come had JUST come out and beat us to the punch with their version of a Zeppelin-like novelty track [Ed: "Get It On" from Kingdom Come's 1988 self-titled debut], so radio wasn't really interested in another one so soon. This sent the marketing department at the label scrambling for a plan B...and made "Ashes To Ashes" nothing more than a token release to radio with very little record company firepower behind it. Other than that, I always thought that either "Dirty Rhythm" or "Naughty Naughty" would've made a great rock video.

One other thing to remember is that Chrysalis wasn't really a hard rock label when we were on board, so I often wonder how we would've done on another label. However, by the time Slaughter launched [in 1990], they really had it together.

KF: There didn't seem to be much of a proper tour for "All Systems Go." What was the original game plan for supporting the album? Were there any opening slots for other acts considered?

BR: One of the first tours discussed was a double-bill theater tour with Michael Schenker. And I think there were several other larger tours talked about. Ultimately, though, we wound up doing a headlining club tour with a few theaters thrown in.

KF: It was reported in "Kerrang!" that the opening act for the ASG tour, L.A. Guns, quit the tour on the grounds that they weren't being given soundchecks. What do you recall about that situation?

BR: Actually, I believe it had more to do with the fact that we weren't able to strike the drums after our soundcheck, so they had to set up all of their shit in front of us...which I knew must've sucked for them. Beyond that, I don't know what other issues might have come up. I was usually at a local gym in the afternoons, so I missed out on a lot of drama!

KF: The Invasion's final gig took place in Anaheim in August 1988? Do you remember how you were feeling following that gig?

BR: You would have to ask the two girls who I wound up sleeping between that night back at the hotel! Seriously, true escapism was in order after a fucked-up night like that. Uh....I think we were all just burnt out and more than a little numb. Plus, we had to separate our gear that night after the show...it was a fucking ugly scene. No yelling and screaming, but a lot of bad blood and heavy vibes. We were all done.

KF: When was the last time you spoke to Vinnie?

BR: I honestly don't remember. 1992, 1993?

KF: As you know, Vinnie has been literally incommunicado for many years. Do you have any information on where he is and what he is up to these days in terms of music?

BR: No idea whatsoever. He vanished. I've never seen anything like this. I would actually love to talk to him sometime. And I would never tell another soul on this earth about our conversation if that's what he wished. I hope he's well, wherever he is.

KF: Word association. What are the first things that come to mind with the Invasion members?

Vinnie Vincent: Great musician and writer...

Dana Strum: Entrepreneur extraordinaire, professional, intelligent...

Robert Fleischman: Artist, creative spirit, incredible singer...

Mark Slaughter: Fun, fun, fun...pipes of steel. My brother.

Bobby Rock: Stupid-ass name!

KF: Bobby, given everything that transpired with the band, would you rank your tenure in the Invasion as a career high point or low point? And what are your fondest memories of your time in the band?

BR: It was actually BOTH a high point and a low point. Being that young, struggling on the club circuit, and then jumping aboard a rocket like that was something else. There was a tremendous buzz on the band, right out of the gate. Exciting times. At the same time, the entire VVI experience was among the most dysfunctional I have seen or heard about, to this day. So the bad times were rough but kind of unequaled throughout my career. For this reason, I'm glad to have experienced all of the bullshit first.

Fondest memories? Opening for my boyhood idol, Alice Cooper, at the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit, on Halloween night. And, playing with Iron Maiden at the same arena in Houston that I had seen them play as a spectator during their last tour, a couple years prior. A full-circle night...

KF: Moving into your career, you played with Nelson in the early '90s, and have since joined up with talented guitarists such as Michael Angelo Batio, Brett Garsed and Gary Hoey, and you released your own instrumental album, "Out Of Body," in 2000. Bring us up to speed on what you are up to now music-wise. Are you still actively recording and/or touring?

BR: Yes, of course. These days, it's been more about single shows here and there, and less about touring, but live playing is still a big part of my vibe. So there's usually a pretty good balance of live shows, something educational (like the Rock Boot Camps I've been involved with) and different kind of session work here and there.

I've also got into writing quite a bit these past 10 or 15 years and just recently finished my seventh book, which is called "Zentauria." It's written in a journal/travelogue format, and it's about spending 11 weeks with a secretive enlightened society on an island off the East coast of Africa, and all the various experiences, encounters and observations that went down. It's the heaviest shit I've ever written. With that, I will be recording my fourth solo record, which is kind of like a soundtrack for the book, and it will feature lots of drums and percussion with full orchestration. This project has been occupying a lot of time here lately!

KF: You also have conducted more than 800 clinics and workshops internationally and have an instructional DVD, "The Zen Of Drumming." Do you enjoy this type of educational work?

BR: Love it. I've always been into the art and science of drumming. So these various formats not only give me a chance to talk about and demonstrate a lot of the pure drumming concepts kind of stuff, but they also let me play a bunch of crazy, over-the-top solo and groove shit to an audience that really appreciates it.

KF: You are known for keeping an intense fitness regimen. You have been a vegan since the early '90s, and are an advocate of drug and alcohol-free living. You've also released a number of published articles on the subject of health and wellness. How has this lifestyle helped your career?

BR: Among many other things, my lifestyle has always afforded me unprecedented levels of health and energy, which means that I stay in top physical condition year-round and am able to work long hours in town or on the road without compromising my professionalism as a musician due to fatigue and burnout.

Plus, I can actually remember shit! This has always been something I never understood about those who choose to live in a fog of intoxication. I know people like to party and all, but fucking hell; the large-scale rock and roll touring lifestyle is a one-of-a-kind experience that very, very few musicians get to experience. So I've always liked the idea of remaining fully lucid and present for the duration of every tour I've ever done. The memory well runs very deep, let me tell you.

Also, my study of nutrition eventually led me to the practice of veganism. This has given me an invaluable perspective on the interconnectedness of all people, all animals and the planet we all share. I know you asked how the lifestyle affected my career, but this is probably worth mentioning because I have spent a tremendous amount of time -- these past four or five years in particular -- participating in a number of animal-related causes. And, of course, I've been living the lifestyle and writing on the subject for many years now.

In fact, one other project I should mention is a book I've been working on for years called "Muscles, Mangos And Meditation." It's a heavily researched work that details the ultimate mind/body fitness lifestyle through nutrition, exercise and the mind/body connection. There are tons of excerpts all over my site and blog. This one will come out some time after "Zentauria."

KF: You're quite the busy guy. Where can fans go to learn more about Bobby Rock?

BR: www.bobbyrock.com is the main hub. From there, you can check out a number of related sections and sites.

KF: On behalf of KissFAQ, thanks for your time Bobby.

BR: My pleasure.

(Special thanks once again to Bobby Rock. For more information on Bobby, visit www.bobbyrock.com or check him out on Facebook and MySpace.)